Home Forums The Japanese Language を versus に (season 3)

This topic contains 12 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Brook 7 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #49426

    ramarichan
    Member

    Hello fellow TextFugu members!

    I’m currently working my way through Season 3 and a couple of pages ago I learned that the particle に is (simply said) associated with verbs that describe some kind of movement/motion. However, in Season 3.8, while practicing ませんでした, I came across an example sentence that confused me a little: “スーパー を でましたか?- Did you exit the supermarket?”
    To me “to exit/to leave/でます” is a form of motion, but instead of に the particle を was used here. Could someone please explain why it isn’t に?

    I’m also a little confused as to how I can be 100% sure that something is a “motion-verb”. For example verbs like “to open/あけます” could be used in a sentence like “I’ll open the door.” Is the opening of the door a movement and therefore に should be used or am I doing a direct action to the door by opening it and shoud therefore use を? I’m not sure if I’ll just figure these things out over time by seeing them more often so I thought I’d just ask while I’m at it.

    Thanks in advance! :)

    #49429

    Joel
    Member

    “Motion verb” basically means going from here to there. So “come”, “go”, “return”, “walk”, “run” et cetera.

    “Open” is a verb that involves changing the state of something (i.e. from “not open” to “open”).

    でます is not exactly a movement verb. It simply means “leave” rather than “leave by moving out of”, if that makes any sense.

    That said, saying “に is associated with motion verbs” is a rather gross simplification. It’s more along the lines that when used with motion verbs, に indicates the destination of the motion. に has about umpteen other uses as well.

    #49436

    ramarichan
    Member

    I’m glad I asked, your explanation helped a lot! Thanks again.

    #49440

    That’ll help me too, since 3.8 is my next sub-season. Still finishing up learning the verbs in 3.7.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by  John Ferguson.
    #49444

    Brook
    Member

    I just discovered this. It seems like we’re in for a good time. :)

    https://nihongoichiban.com/home/japanese-grammar-particles/

    Anyway, although I’m really not an expert, I think I can provide a little more in-depth answer about the use of を in your particular example. The answer I would have expected Joel to give, actually, since he always explains things so well. I guess he didn’t want to get too technical, but I don’t think I will either.

    You have two things to remember, here (if you don’t already know them):
    -を marks the direct object of a verb.
    -The direct object is a noun phrase that answers the question “What?”.

    Ex:

    I drove the car.
    “To drive” is the verb. What did you drive? The car. “The car” is direct object. So を is required.

    I drove to London.
    “To drive” is the verb. What did you drive? We don’t know. “To London” doesn’t answer that question. It is not direct object so you won’t use を.

    As for the sentence you’re asking about.

    “To open” is the verb. What did you open ? The door. “The door” is direct object, which justifies the use of を.

    Please note that this doesn’t work with linking verbs such as “to be”, which have a complement instead of an object. A complement is used for renaming or describing the subject, as in “This weird tool is a foot slide.” or “He is a nice guy.”

    I can’t say much about に, though. Especially since, as Joel implied, へ seems to be the one to go to in some situations involving movement, and there are some other situations where に is used that really don’t involve movement unless you try very hard to make said situation fit in the box with a lot of approximations and convoluted reasoning, which are okay for vocabulary mnemonics, but really not as good for grammar.

    Hope this helped a bit.

    Cheers!

    パンツ見せて貰ってもよろしいですか。
    #49446

    Joel
    Member

    Oh, I could have gone waaay more in-depth. =P

    For example, with movement verbs:
    - へ and に have similar meanings, but に tends to put more emphasis on the destination, while へ puts more emphasis on the movement itself – something like the difference between “to” and “towards” in English.
    - を indicates the route of travel.

    公園に歩きました = walked to the park
    公園へ歩きました = walked towards the park
    公園を歩きました = walked through the park

    Other functions for に:
    - Marks indirect object (benificiary of verb being done)
    - Marks the time
    - Marks the surface on which an action takes place (e.g. in the sense of 紙に書きます = write on paper)
    - Marks the purpose for doing a movement verb
    - Marks location-of-existence

    And so forth. =P

    #49458

    Brook
    Member

    See? I knew you were getting tired of my questions. You’re starting answering them even before I ask them.

    へ and に have similar meanings, but に tends to put more emphasis on the destination, while へ puts more emphasis on the movement itself.

    Replace the period with a question mark, and that’s pretty much what my next question was going to be. Plus, you exceed my expectations by pointing out useful stuff like this particular use of を, or this “surface” meaning of に which I was quite not getting.

    Thanks.

    パンツ見せて貰ってもよろしいですか。
    #49469

    ramarichan
    Member

    I don’t know what else to say other than thank you guys! I’ll actually go and rewrite my notes on both を and に now since your examples really helped to get to the bottom of the issue. I actually have not officially learned about へ or the other uses of に yet, so now I’ve gained some extra knowledge in advance, which will surely come in handy ;)
    And thanks for the link Brook, I’ll make sure to check it whenever I come across a new particle!

    #49472

    Joel
    Member

    Last time I checked, Koichi forgot to include a lesson on へ (just something that slipped between the cracks, unfortunately). On the plus side, though, unlike the thousand uses for に, what’s mentioned above pretty much covers everything you need to know about it, except for the fact that when it’s functioning as a particle, it’s pronounced え.

    #49555

    ramarichan
    Member

    So, one more time to make sure I got it right now, using Brook’s example:
    スーパー を でましたか? – Did you leave the Supermarket?
    What did you leave? – The Supermarket.
    The Supermarket is the direct object of the verb “to leave” and therefore in this particular example the particle を, which indicates a direct object of a verb, is used. Right?

    #49556

    ramarichan
    Member

    Oh and if it’s not too much work, could you perphaps elaborate on these functions for に:
    - Marks indirect object (benificiary of verb being done)
    - Marks the purpose for doing a movement verb
    - Marks location-of-existence

    Rereading it now I don’t think I quite understood what those meant exactly, so an example might help (but if TextFugu covers this in later chapters you can just ignore this.)

    #49557

    Joel
    Member

    スーパー を でましたか? – Did you leave the Supermarket?<br>
    What did you leave? – The Supermarket.<br>

    Yep, that’s correct.

    Oh and if it’s not too much work, could you perphaps elaborate on these functions for に:<br>

    Fairly sure you’ll learn these at some point, but here’s a brief summary:

    - Marks indirect object (benificiary of verb being done)

    For example, “I wrote a letter to my father” – “my father” is the indirect object (while “a letter” is the direct object.

    わたし は ちち  てがみ を かきました

    On a similar note, it also marks the agent in passive or causative sentences (i.e. “The letter was written by Alice” and “Bob made Alice write a letter” – in both examples, Alice is the agent, and would be marked by に).

    - Marks the purpose for doing a movement verb

    Purpose for moving is formed by V-stem + に + いきます/きます et cetera

    I went to Tokyo for shopping (i.e. I went there in order to shop) = わたし は とうきょう に かい  いきました

    - Marks location-of-existence

    The verbs あります, います and, for some reason, すみます use に to mark the location (while other verbs use で).

    Roppongi is in Tokyo = ろっぽんぎ は とうきょう  あります
    I live in Australia = わたし は オーストラリア  すんでいます

    #49560

    Brook
    Member

    If I may give my uptake on the matter…

    In English, yes, it is direct object, because “to enter” is transitive (“direct”, although I’m not sure if this is a thing in English). But that’s not how you should see it in Japanese. If you followed this logic, then you should also write スーパー を はいりました, which you don’t.

    You’d write スーパー に はいりました because はいる is intransitive – meaning it never takes an object, direct or indirect – and because に is the particle used for the point of arrival (#30 in the list).

    I think the を in your sentence should be understood as the point-of-departure を (#28).

    I believe it makes sense, and I trust Joel will correct me if I said anything wrong anyway. :)

    That’s one big thing you have to be wary about when you a learn a language, in my opinion: verbs transitivity.

    パンツ見せて貰ってもよろしいですか。
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