Home Forums The Japanese Language Confused about on'yomi vs kun'yomi

This topic contains 7 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Joel 9 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #47614

    Sorry if this has been posted before:

    I’m reviewing kanji and I’ve realized that I am totally confused on the difference between on’yomi and kun’yomi in conversation.

    This is my current line of thinking: on’yomi is used when you’re mentioning something on it’s own while kun’yomi is exclusively used in referenced to something else.

    For example, if someone wanted me to answer a math problem in which the answer was eight or say how many computers were in a room, I would respond with the on’yomi はち.

    However if I was telling someone there’s eight things, dogs, cats, midgets, whatever somewhere I would use the kun’yomi や (+ whatever the noun is I’m talking about of course).

    Where am I thinking wrong here?

    #47616

    Justin
    Member

    Well… I’m probably not going to give the best answer, because I’m like MAYBE ALMOST at N5 MAYBE A LITTLE so I’m far from fluent or being Joel… But my experience so far has just been to learn specifically when one is used instead of the other, and to learn it as it becomes relevant to what I’m doing. There are patterns to some things for sure, but there are so many exceptions and oddities that it just seems easier to know that specific things are a specific reading. It’s not efficient, by any means, but it gets me through a lot of cold and lonely nights by the light of my laptop.

    My understanding (and hope) is that with lots of practise and exposure you just… get it. As the omniscient Ms. Frizzle always says “take chances, make mistakes, and get messy!”. To be perfectly honest I’m not sure how that last part applies or if you even want it to, but it’s still a good quote dammit.

    So. Yeah. Um. I hope that didn’t destroy your spirits. For what it’s worth, there are literally millions of people who can speak Japanese. Statistically, you can absolutely do it too.

    I haz a blog http://maninjapanchannel.wordpress.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLQzB-1u-dg
    #47617

    Joel
    Member

    Could it be you’re specifically confused about the kun’yomi and on’yomi of numbers? Think you’re getting confused about counter words rather than readings. When you count things in Japanese, you have to use a counter word. English has a few, but they’re not as ubiquitous – for example “ten head of cattle”, “sixteen pairs of pants”, “ninety-nine bottles of beer”.

    What you’re talking about is やっつ. The つ counter is a special one that uses the kun’yomi for the numbers one to ten. (It does, supposedly, continue past ten, but it’s essentially never used.) It’s essentially used to count generic “things”. “Eight of those, please” sort of thing.

    To count non-generic things, you need to use a specific counter word, and (aside from 一人, 二人 and the weird freaky readings that go with 日) all of the specific counters use on’yomi… so far as I can recall. For example, dogs and cats use 匹 (ひき). Eight of them would be 八匹 (はっぴき – yes, some of the numbers do weird things to the counters’ readings).

    Wikipedia’s article on this subject is pretty good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_counter_word

    #47621

    Hm, I guess I’m just confused on why there are on’yomi and kun’yomi for kanji and specifically what their specific roles are. The description provided in TextFugu never really seemed like it cleared that up. Are there certain times when you use on’yomi and kun’yomi? Is kun’yomi only used for specific vocabulary? Is the entire thing context based? (Because if so that seems like it’d be incredibly difficult for a beginner to understand or get the hang of.)

    Btw sort of off-topic but on the topic of kanji: What’s people’s experience with using WaniKani as the main kanji tool along with TextFugu?

    #47626

    Joel
    Member

    So, back in the depths of pre-history, Japan already had its own spoken language, but no written language (that’s what makes it pre-history, you see). They had their own words for things like trees, rocks, people, et cetera. When Buddhist scholars arrived from China, they brough with them the Chinese writing system, as well as words for more esoteric concepts like government, taxation, humankind, and so forth. This imported writing system was applied to the existing Japanese spoken language, becoming kanji (and later, hiragana, and even later on, katakana).

    Which brings us to on’yomi and kun’yomi. The kun’yomi are the native readings that were given to the kanji when they were brought over to Japan, while the on’yomi are the Chinese readings that were imported along with the kanji. Some kanji have no kun’yomi, and interestingly enough, there’s even a handful of kanji with no on’yomi.

    Typically, you’ll use the kun’yomi when a character is standing on its own (for example, 話 on its own is read as はなし) or with okurigana, hiragana tacked on the ends of verbs and adjectives to indicate conjugation and whatnot (for example, 話 as part of 話す is read as はな – this will typically be written in kanji dictionaries as something like はな・す or はな(す) to indicate which bit is the kanji’s reading and which bit is okurigana). You’ll use the on’yomi when a character is in a compound word along with other kanji (for example, 話 in 電話 is read as わ).

    This is not a hard-and-fast rule – there’s about a thousand and one exceptions – but once you start to get a lot of vocab under your belt, you’ll start to get a feel for which reading goes where. I can generally intuit the reading of a word I’ve never seen before, if I know the kanji (and sometimes I can even intuit the readings of kanji I’ve never seen before). I kinda think the more nature-oriented a word is, the more likely it is to use kun’yomi (for example, 川口, river mouth, uses the kun’yomi for both characters: かわぐち).

    My suggestion is not to try to learn the readings in isolation – learn vocab, and the readings should come to you as a result.

    #47633

    Justin
    Member

    I didn’t really explain it very well, but hellz to the yes for vocab. That’s how I’m learning it is through vocab. Sort of how I meant it when I said that you eventually start to just “get it”.

    In some ways it’s actually a lot like English. There are strange things that just developed over time as a result of who the hell knows what and you just have to accept it lol. Example: “i before e except after c”? Nope. Sometimes it’s i before e after c, or sometimes it’s e before i, just because shut up stop asking questions. You just kinda learn the exceptions and patterns the more you develop your vocab.

    Last bit, long before I started learning Japanese, and even before I’d started learning Italian, I’ve held the belief that reading gives you a greater command of the language. Obviously when you’re still in the early stages of language you can’t expect to be reading full on novels, but if you can get children’s books, you should be able to start getting through those by the time you’re done TF (or even before). Then you have the benefit of picking up basic vocab AND seeing it in context. Children’s books are doubly good because they typically give you the furigana for all the kanji. Which reminds me, make sure you get the ones that actually have kanji lol. Too young an audience and you just get hiragana.

    I haz a blog http://maninjapanchannel.wordpress.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLQzB-1u-dg
    #47636

    Ah, alright. So the way I’ve been studying Kanji so far is that I have four whole different sets I’m going through (I use Quizlet as opposed to Anki): I have just Kanji with their English translations, on’yomi readings, kun’yomi readings and vocabulary, and I’ve been going through all of these independently. I’ve had a feeling that this was a really backwards way of studying…. But at the same time they all seem important. So I guess I can’t decide if I’m studying wrong or if it’s just the difficulty of Kanji that I’m not yet used to.

    And especially in regards to when there’s multiple on or kun readings. Do I really need to learn three or four different readings for one Kanji? (I know the answer to that is yes and I shouldn’t even be asking but holy cow is it confusing and overwhelming.) Especially since it seems like in TF, Koichi always places one kun’yomi reading on its own and the rest is in conjunction with vocabulary. That makes me wonder if I really should bother learning those readings independently or if I should just include it with vocab.

    #47641

    Joel
    Member

    Example: “i before e except after c”? Nope.

    Fun fact: there are more words that break that rule than follow it. =P

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