The "I found some Japanese I don't understand" thread.

[MisterM2402 [Michael]Member]

Somebody asked this question at the bottom of a page over at Tae Kim:

“What are “ずに” forms from　いる and　ある? If they even exists?” (sic)

Nobody has replied to it and I was quite curious too. Searching for いりず（に）(no idea what form ある would take) returned no example sentences on jisho or ALC – are they just rare or do they not exist?

On a related note, when it comes to ある meaning “to have”, when would you use that over 持つ? Do you think it would be better to say something like「お金が持たず～」 or like 「お金が（ず form of ある here)～」?

[JoelMember]

You might do better searching for いらず(に) for いる. For ある, I think it’s just ず(に).

As for 持つ versus ある, I don’t know anything about the subtleties in meaning here, so… maybe it’s personal preference? You might want to say 持ったず, though. =P

[MisterM2402 [Michael]Member]

いらず(に) *facepalm* I must have been thinking “stem + ず”, since that’s kind of the rule for ru-verbs.
I actually tried searching ありず for ある, but that’s DOUBLE wrong and it took me a while to realise :P  After that though, I had a feeling it might just be ず, but how are you supposed to search for that? haha

I think you’ll find it’s actually 持たず ;) Though to be fair, Rikaikun is again picking up 持ったず, like that verb in the other thread that I can’t remember. It must be some colloquial thing.

[JoelMember]

After that though, I had a feeling it might just be ず, but how are you supposed to search for that? haha

Search for ずに then filter the results manually?

I think you’ll find it’s actually 持たず ;)

Gah. I confused the past-tense with the negative stem. Fail. Especially considering I just specifically corrected your not-using the negative stem…

[ElenkisMember]

いる as in “to exist/be” (居る) would be いず.

ある is  あらず.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by  Elenkis.

[JoelMember]

…

Maybe I should quit while I’m ahead…

I still think ある is just ず, though. Not sure when you’d use it, either way.

[MisterM2402 [Michael]Member]

Waaaait…

Man, I’ve been thinking ある was a る-verb and いる was an う-verb… If I had just considered the polite あります and います, that would have been clearly wrong >.<

But anyway, even though ある is an う-verb, its plain negative is ない, not あらない, so unless this is some specific quirk, I don’t think it would be あらず. Hold on, Rikaikun is picking up あらず correctly…

And Joel, if I searched ずに, that would return EVERY verb in that form since they all end that way, which looks to be 450 sentences on jisho.org >.<

[ElenkisMember]

ある is  あらず

The normal exception for negative ある is ignored and it functions like a normal -u verb.

[vanandrewMember]

I saw this: また計算違ってるじゃないか. translated as “Your calculation had been wrong again.”

I understand 違う to be ‘wrong’, so with the negative ending I thought it may have been ‘to not be wrong’.

Am I not wrong or wrong?

[JoelMember]

It’s one of those negatives-used-to-indicate-uncertainty that I was griping about a page or so back. The か makes all the difference – the translation becomes something like “The calculation is wrong again… isn’t it?”

[vanandrewMember]

Ah ok, very good. Thanks.

I must admit, I was focussing on the negative ending & missed the か

[vanandrewMember]

I hadn’t seen ‘では’ before, but it popped in the below:

日本では「クイーンの誕生日」という国民の祝日がありますか？

What’s the distinction between it & には?

 

 

[JoelMember]

It’s just particle で plus particle は – that is to say, the difference between では and には is the same as the difference between で and に.

In this context, anyway. It’s not the same in Verb-ではない. =)

[vanandrewMember]

Ah, ok. Thanks.

[マーク・ウェーバーMember]

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辞典で調べてみたら意味と使い方は同じようなんでした。

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