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On’yomi is the imported Chinese reading of a kanji, which came with the kanji when they were imported from China. Kun’yomi is the native Japanese reading, from where kanji were applied to Japanese words that already existed.
General rule of thumb is that you use kun’yomi when a kanji’s standing on its own or has tacked-on okurigana, and on’yomi when it’s in a compound word with other kanji, but there’s about a thousand and one exceptions.
For example, 話 uses its kun’yomi はなし when it’s standing alone. With okurigana, as 話す, it’s read as just はな. In a multi-kanji word like 電話, it uses its on’yomi, わ (the word is read as でんわ).
An exception: 川口, despite being a multi-kanji word, uses kun’yomi for both kanji (it’s かわぐち). I think in general, the more concrete and natural-world-themed a word is, the more likely it’ll be to use kun’yomi. 川口 = river mouth.
Your best bet is to just start learning vocab, and you’ll start to get a feel for what readings to use where over time.
You really can’t avoid learning kanji altogether. It’s like learning the alphabet in English but never learning any words.
Thanks Joel for explaining!
In this case why is the reading of this kanji りよく / りき which is the on’yomi instead of the kun’yomi which is ちから?
Yes I understand I definitely can’t avoid it and must definitely get to it but is learning this way the best way?
Hey there! Welcome back Stephanie.
My reasons for learning Japanese are pretty much similar to yours. I’m sort of starting over on TextFugu as well though I do take Japanese lessons at school. If you would like a study buddy … i’m here!From what I’ve heard N2 is about what you would need for most jobs. But keep in mind, the more specific your job gets and the more vocabulary there is specific to that job, there will be higher expectations.
For a slightly better understanding:<br>
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2013/11/24/issues/is-the-jlpt-really-worth-it/#.VO8ei_nF9NEThank you very much for the link! It was an interesting read!
I’ve done N3. Not sure I’d call myself fluent, though that could just be me. =)
Your sort of stuck in the middle, but from my perspective you would be fluent hahah!
But I suppose it depends I have a friend who is really good at speaking Japanese but horrible at writing.Welcome!
So, I went to Japan almost five years ago now, before I started learning Japanese, but I managed just fine without a tour guide. Granted, knowing Japanese might have helped in a few situations, and it quite probably would have enhanced things, but don’t worry too much about your Japanese knowledge holding you back. At least as a tourist, in any case – working with Japanese people might be a different matter. =)
Hello Joel
Thank you for the welcome!
I would like to visit the secluded country sides areas and stuff and learning the culture so it would definitely help to enhance my experience! :)
If one works in Japan how fluent do they need to be? I would assume at least N3 standard?Hello everyone,
My reason for wanting to learn Japanese is because I am finally going to Japan! I am a camera operator for a documentary film and I will be in Japan for nearly a month. I have always been intrigued by Japanese language, culture and FOOD and so this is a great opportunity for me and a great excuse to (begin to) learn a new language. I came here on a recommendation of a friend.
All the best on your Japanese learning journey! I am just starting to learn again myself.
What sort of documentary film would you be working on?Hey!
Oh man I would love to be in Middle Earth rather than where I am.
All the best lots of motivation and passion is needed! I think I might start again as well when school is not so busy! Have fun in Japan!P.S is your username a combination of sherlock and loki ?
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Alexis wrote:</div>
So for example 入れる. I should learn it as いれる and not い.れる?<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>kanjiman8 wrote:</div>
Yes, ignore the dots in the middle of vocab words. Only seen that on TextFugu.No, you need to remember that the い is represented by the 入 while the れる is the okurigana ending. When the verb conjugates, the reading of the kanji itself stays exactly the same, while only the okurigana changes.
While I’ll grant most places I’ve seen will write the reading with paretheses as い（れる）, you can’t have seen many sites if TextFugu’s the only one where you’ve seen an interpunct, Kanjiman.
Ah i see, but isn’t it the kanji that changes? 入る > the 入 change to はい ?
We keep hearing about this potential massive TextFugu update, but whenever koichi sheds light on it, there’s no time frame given or concrete details of what new content will be added. The idea appears to be to merge TextFugu with EtoEto, but who knows. I think it will eventually see the light of day, but not for a good while yet. By then, most of the current TextFugu members will likely have no need for it anyway.
Definitely give RTK a go. Loads of people like the method and have found success with it. It might just work for you.
Yes, ignore the dots in the middle of vocab words. Only seen that on TextFugu.
Sorry I have not got about to replying sooner! I was trying to avoid Japanese (esp Kanji) as it was overloading my brain. Good things take time I suppose, we just have to wait and see! I have took a look at season 8 and yeah even though there is not much to be explained somehow it doesn’t feel polished at all, the later seasons are definitely a work in progress.
I definitely will! If not I would probably end up learning like a Japanese kid since my Japanese lessons resume in two weeks.
Once again thank you!
I think as well as vocab it would be helpful to learn radicals and how kanji are made up of them. I’d suggest reading RTK (you said you could get it from the library?) but instead of working through it the proper way like I did – doing flash cards and making up stories for every single kanji – just read through the book, focussing on bits concerning radicals and stroke order. I feel the main strength of the book is the reader building a familiarity with kanji and how they are composed, and I’m sure this can be done without remembering every single kanji in the way it tells you to. Maybe write out each one a couple of times to get a feel for it, but I think the way I did it with endless flash cards was a waste of time. If I was to redo learning Japanese from the start, I’d definitely not spend so much time on RTK, I’d go through it in a much smarter way.
Sorry for the late reply. I was trying to take my mind off Japanese (especially Kanji) for a bit. It was proving to be too much for me. Thank you very much for the advice I will most definitely check that book out!
Personally, I wouldn’t recommend anyone to use the whole of TextFugu in its current state. It’s an unfinished, mistaken ridden mess. I know that’s probably the last thing you want to hear, but read the “Updates update” thread to understand better. Now, saying that, I would however, suggest using the first couple of seasons maybe. These have important motivation techniques, and does explain very simple grammar points like です in an easy to understand way. If you do that, you can use that as a springboard and then switch to a better resource like Tae Kim’s guide or a textbook like Genki.
WaniKani – I used the first free two levels, but didn’t really like it. I prefer using Anki and either making my own decks or using shared ones. Give it a try to see if it’s for you.
RTK is a popular book but it does have its downsides. Some of the kanji it covers aren’t that common and aren’t used in common vocab words. Not to say you won’t see those kanji at all, but I think it’s better to learn common kanji first. Which brings me to the method Japanese kids use. If you do it their way, it might seem harder as each kanji don’t build upon each other like in RTK, but you’re learning common kanji which are found in very common words.
Yes, don’t worry about the on and kun readings. Just think of them as vocab. There’s too many to memorise. Plus when it comes to names, there’s even more readings. Even native Japanese don’t learn every single reading for each kanji.
Well I definitely hope that they pull TF out of its current state, since it has so much potential!
I am currently finishing season 2 but not quite yet since I can’t sort out all the Kanji they have put into season 2. Sometimes I just skip the kanji section and realise there is sort of a problem since TF teaches through “build-up” learning, so the practice sentences they use have Kanji which I do not know. So I am definitely contemplating on whether to go through with the kanji on TF or just drop it for now and just understand the other chapters. Currently for my Japanese class we are using the minna no nihongo TB.Okay will do! I will probably borrow RTK from a library and check it out.
So for example 入れる. I should learn it as いれる and not い.れる?
Thank you!
“I think she would probably teach like how japanese kids learn kanji.”
Almost certainly. Native Japanese teachers seem to think the way they learned kanji was the best and the only way it should be done. They learned kanji by writing them out by hand 100s of times but that seems such a waste of time to me haha.
I agree with the opinion that you shouldn’t need to explicitly learn readings themselves. As an example, if you learned the words 電車（でん・しゃ）, 自転車（じ・てん・しゃ）, and 自動車（じ・どう・しゃ）, then your brain will be able to infer itself that 車 can be read as しゃ, without having to learn the reading as a separate entity beforehand. Whether しゃ is ‘on’ or ‘kun’ isn’t really that important, unless you’re being tested on it :P There *are* a few basic guidelines on where ‘on’ and ‘kun’ readings are each used but there are so many exceptions. Also, if you learn readings from words, it guarantees that the readings you do learn are actually useful (only learning useful readings is also part of TF’s kanji section, but this method streamlines the process even more, if that makes sense).
Say that you’ve learned the word 電車（でん・しゃ）above, you know that 電 can be read as でん, but you can’t be sure it’s a common reading since you’ve only seen one word with it. Then say that you learned the word 電気（でん・き）- this makes the association between 電 and でん in your head a little more concrete and it gives you a better idea of how common it is. Learn the word 元気 and that’s you got 気 → き more firmly in your head :D And from the second two examples in the above paragraph, you’ve also got 自 → じ. All these associations happened naturally, without you making any extra effort to learn しゃ, じ, でん, or き on their own.
Definitely doesn’t seem like the most effective way to learn Kanji. (If there is one)
So what you are saying is that one should study the Vocab part in the TF kanji section? Then eventually after learning more vocab one would be able to match a certain way of reading it?
For example 入る（はいる）I shouldn’t learn it as 入る（はい.る）?
Gosh kanji is pretty darn complicated, I hope I’m not confusing you because I’m pretty confused myself.
My advice is don’t try to memorize the kun and on readings. Even if you knew them, you wouldn’t be completely sure how to read the kanji if you came across a new word. Sometimes you’re not sure whether you have to use the on or kun reading. Instead, learn the kanji in context. Learn the whole compound word; not just the kanji separately.
There was a really good site with an article that elaborated on this, but damn I can’t find it. Pisses me off to; it was a really good one.
Do you mean that I should only learn the vocab, and not focus on the ON KUN reading?
Would be totally awesome if you could find it! I hope you find it again sometime!
Thank you for the advice (:
My advice would be to scrap the Kanji section on here completely. There’s other and much better ways to learn it. Some alternatives are WaniKani, Remembering the Kanji or the way Japanese kids learn at school.
WaniKani will be an extra cost, so you might want to try our the first two free levels before deciding to commit to that.
If you want to do RTK, you can either buy the book or download it. You can use the supplement website http://kanji.koohii.com/ with the book and use other people’s stories instead of Heisig’s.
The last method is learning the initial 1006 characters taught in grades 1 – 6 in Japanese primary/elementary school. After that, learning the rest taught in high school.<br>
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/jouyoukanji.html<br>
This is a method I’ve recently begun to use as you start to learn common words early which use the kanji you’re learning. You can use jisho.org to find common words, and you can download free anki decks with vocab list here https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/japanese.Experiment and see what works best for you.
Definitely don’t bother learning the on and kun readings separately. You will naturally pick these up through vocab.
So the kanji section here is pretty confusing for beginners? Would you think it is a good idea to go through all the other parts of textfugu without the kanji sections?
I haven’t got around to trying wanikani yet, what do you think about it?
RTK is definitely a popular book for learning kanji!
The last method definitely sounds interesting! I am currently taking Japanese lessons, and soon the teacher is probably going to start on kanji, I think she would probably teach like how japanese kids learn kanji.
So don’t think of them as ON/KUN readings? Just think of them as vocab?
Thank you very much for sharing your methods!
You don’t have to remember both the kun and on reading for the kanji (at first). You can settle for the one further down on the kanji page.<br>
e.g.<br>
http://www.textfugu.com/kanji/%E4%B9%9D/#top<br>
the on for 九 is く or きゅう and the kun is ここの. Under the topic “reading” on the page you get told that you should learn the く、きゅう at first, so just do that.<br>
For remembering it I either use the mnemonic written or I make one myself. Often you remember them better if you make them yourself.How many pages of TF I do each day depends on the day and the page. If I have a busy day I often only go through one page but if it is an easy page I sometimes think I can take one more. I try to not do so much that it becomes too difficult. If I feel it begins to become too much for me, I stop. I let my brain absorb the new information over the night. It’s okay to day one page each day. I think it is better to read it one (two in a few cases) time and remember nearly everything than reading it three or five times before understanding it because I mix things up.
I see! Thank you very much, I was a bit confused with how to utilise the kanji page.
I shall try out the method that you proposed! (:
Currently I am jus ploughing through most of the pages since it’s the holidays and I already know some of the lessons through my Japanese classes, so its sort of refresher and to help deepen my understanding (It has done a good job, i understand textfugu more than my Japanese classes!)
